Third batch of KIT [Detector V2.61]


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Szopler
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Message 2902 - Posted: 21 Aug 2014 | 14:03:54 UTC
Last modified: 16 Feb 2015 | 10:08:03 UTC

100% SOLD
DONE!

Number of kits in this batch: 102 pcs.

KIT definition:
- partially mounted PCB (high voltage generating section + testing ; without LCD, buzzer and pulse forming section)
- Geiger tube
- Enclosure
- Programmed µP

Shipment planned within 6 weeks after collecting all orders.
HERE <-- is a list of orders/payments.

Cost (with shipping):
for 1..3 : 25.00 Euro
for 4..6 : 24.50 Euro
for 7..9 : 24.00 Euro
for 10+ : 23.75 Euro
(When you will pay for 20 sets it results in that one is for free!)

Karl Heinz Blaettel
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Message 2905 - Posted: 24 Aug 2014 | 12:22:54 UTC

I again order 1 Kit

Karl Heinz Blättel
Solmserstr.11
35619 Braunfels
Germany

with best regards



Payment will be done by PayPal
____________

Profile JaRski-S60R
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Message 2909 - Posted: 29 Aug 2014 | 19:07:12 UTC - in response to Message 2902.

Just ordered my 1st, was always sold out the times before.

payment done by Paypal

Profile Sylvester@Planet 3Dnow!
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Message 2910 - Posted: 30 Aug 2014 | 11:01:48 UTC

Hi Szopler

Just I have payed via PayPal 147,00 EUR for 6 Detectors.

Thank you

Kater Sylvester

caiusloius
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Message 2912 - Posted: 31 Aug 2014 | 1:15:24 UTC - in response to Message 2902.

Hi,

I'd like to order one kit.

Regards.
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Bernhard Goetz
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Message 2913 - Posted: 2 Sep 2014 | 1:54:13 UTC

I will Order 1 Kit.
Payment via Paypal.

Bernhard Götz
Dr.-Carlo-Schmid-Str. 182
90491 Nürnberg
Germany

Crazy-Sonic
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Message 2914 - Posted: 2 Sep 2014 | 20:00:29 UTC
Last modified: 2 Sep 2014 | 20:05:38 UTC

I will Order 1 Kit.
Payment via Paypal.

Timo Schwarting
Lindenstraße 13
27777 Ganderkesee
Germany

EJ
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Message 2925 - Posted: 11 Sep 2014 | 23:10:14 UTC

I would like to order a sensor if they are still available?

lasicz
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Message 2926 - Posted: 15 Sep 2014 | 12:36:12 UTC - in response to Message 2902.

Ja również zamawiam 1 szt. Płatność przez PayPal. A gdzie podać adres wysyłki?

Pozdr,
Lasicz

Holger Weiss
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Message 2931 - Posted: 2 Oct 2014 | 7:32:26 UTC

I order 1.
Will pay via pp szopler@gmail.com

Profile Tagacchi
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Message 2934 - Posted: 2 Oct 2014 | 16:19:02 UTC

Hi Szopler,

I would like to order one kit.
Just I have payed via PayPal 25,00 EUR.

Thank you so much.

Szopler
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Message 2938 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014 | 17:22:00 UTC - in response to Message 2926.

Ja również zamawiam 1 szt. Płatność przez PayPal. A gdzie podać adres wysyłki?

Pozdr,
Lasicz


Najlepiej w komentarzu do transakcji PayPal :)

Profile JaRski-S60R
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Message 2940 - Posted: 12 Oct 2014 | 16:00:07 UTC - in response to Message 2902.
Last modified: 12 Oct 2014 | 16:01:22 UTC

Shipment planned within 6 weeks after collecting all orders.

33% today are sold

@Szopler: Any plans to ship before ALL 100 are sold? Previous you were sold out in 12days orsow, it's going slow this batch. Don't get me wrong I'm not pushing anything, I just "can't" (sure I can) wait to deliver my data to the project.

BR//JaRski

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Message 2941 - Posted: 14 Oct 2014 | 17:01:15 UTC

Hi Szopler,

I sent an email just now about my name on the list, please check it.

Regards,
Tagacchi

gordy
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Message 2944 - Posted: 23 Oct 2014 | 2:40:39 UTC

what are other options for me to do this in canada

can I buy this kit or the parts in Canada

thanks

Profile Euphoriabuzz
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Message 2948 - Posted: 3 Nov 2014 | 9:18:26 UTC
Last modified: 3 Nov 2014 | 9:18:50 UTC

Payment Sent (Unique Transaction ID: 1CP04325SH137361K)
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Profile s4per
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Message 2950 - Posted: 3 Nov 2014 | 22:58:12 UTC

Poszła kasa PayPal'em za jedną sztukę dla mnie :)
Pozdrawiam!

nesslinger-it
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Message 2951 - Posted: 4 Nov 2014 | 11:56:00 UTC

PayPal Payment is done

thanks

gp.eter
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Message 2958 - Posted: 18 Nov 2014 | 10:21:24 UTC

Hello Szopler,

I would like to order zwo kits.
I've just payed via PayPal 50,00 EUR.
(Transaktionscode 4M053891B2235190J)

Thank you very much.

oheunseok [SETIKAH@KOREA]
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Message 2959 - Posted: 20 Nov 2014 | 2:35:16 UTC

Szopler,

I tried to contact you by serveral ways, but still I cannot get any answer from you.

like I said before, I'm still struggling with 15 of detectors which is not working.


I need some help, but I've been ignored from you for few months.

so please, send me PM, or email, what ever when you can.

Profile Devlin85
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Message 2960 - Posted: 21 Nov 2014 | 17:41:46 UTC

Just ordered mine, can't wait to get it!

Szopler
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Message 2961 - Posted: 21 Nov 2014 | 20:49:58 UTC - in response to Message 2959.
Last modified: 21 Nov 2014 | 20:51:02 UTC

oheunseok [SETIKAH@KOREA] - I just sent you a PM.

Chris Skull
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Message 2962 - Posted: 24 Nov 2014 | 18:37:58 UTC

Hello,

just ordered 1 :)

Greetz
Chris

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Profile wuppergisi
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Message 2966 - Posted: 2 Dec 2014 | 12:58:42 UTC

Hi, i want 1 kit, but which payment i must use?

1. Pay for goods or services

or

2. Send money to friends and family (No fee if you use your PayPal balance or bank account for domestic transactions)

Erotavlas [Toscana]
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Message 2967 - Posted: 4 Dec 2014 | 7:53:27 UTC

Hi,

I'm a member of Italian team Boinc@Italy. We would like to buy a batch of sensors, but before to order we have some questions:
1) I read about the availability of sensors v.3.0, but now it seems sold out. When is it expected to be available again (more or less)?
2) If we decide to order for example 10 sensors and we provide the list of addresses, do you will send to each address or to unique master address? Because if you will send to unique master address, it is better to make 10 different orders and pay the full price for the sensors since it is cheaper than the Italian post delivery.
3) How is difficult to manage the assembling of the sensor?

Thank you
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Szopler
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Message 2968 - Posted: 5 Dec 2014 | 22:21:54 UTC - in response to Message 2967.

Ad.1 There is no V3 detectors at now but it should become available at spring 2015.
Ad.2 It is better for me to send one parcel because shipping cost to Italy is 5 Euro for 1..3 pcs. and 15 Euro for 10 pcs. in one parcel.
Ad.3 If you know how to hold the soldering iron it is quite easy :).

Profile KarmannGaz
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Message 2969 - Posted: 7 Dec 2014 | 0:01:59 UTC

Hi, I've just sent payment for one kit, and look forward to receiving it sometime next year and soldering it together and getting it running here in England. :-)

Profile Jean-Luc.Chastenier
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Message 2971 - Posted: 17 Dec 2014 | 13:31:54 UTC

Hi Szopler,

I just send you the money for 3 kits via Paypal and my shipping address via e-mail.

With best regards

Jean-Luc Chastenier

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Message 2972 - Posted: 19 Dec 2014 | 11:12:19 UTC

I buy 10sets i send you the money with PayPal at Saturday.
Thank you!

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Message 2973 - Posted: 19 Dec 2014 | 11:17:40 UTC - in response to Message 2972.

Hi im from Seti-Germany

Can you send me a PN so we can look for futer, to send us parts and we assemble it. So you have more time for devlopement.

Hope to hear from you.

Kind regards
Michael

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Message 2975 - Posted: 21 Dec 2014 | 13:07:50 UTC

Just ordered one kit.

Payment via PayPal is on the way, added my address in payment comment. Hope this works :-)

W.

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Message 2978 - Posted: 22 Dec 2014 | 21:51:46 UTC

I have and am using Rad. monitors on my computer that are manufactured by Aware Electronics.
I have 3 different types of Sensors and am running AW-RADW Software for
Win7. Will this work for this project?

If not then I will need to with draw from this project.
Hope this will work, as I run my Sensor/sensors every day.

Raven


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Andrew Kingwell
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Message 2982 - Posted: 29 Dec 2014 | 12:05:14 UTC

I have ordered 1 kit @ 25.00 EUR on Pay-Pal

Please ship to

10 Low Stobhill
Morpeth
NE61 2SG
United Kingdom

Regards
Andrew

DG8FZ
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Message 2983 - Posted: 29 Dec 2014 | 18:02:19 UTC - in response to Message 2902.
Last modified: 29 Dec 2014 | 18:23:21 UTC

I order 1 Kit.

Karl Kramer
Am Gallichten 9
35398 Giessen
Germany

with best regards



Payment was done via PayPal
(Transaktionscode 9ND31448GJ187921M)

DG8FZ
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Message 2984 - Posted: 29 Dec 2014 | 18:10:30 UTC - in response to Message 2983.
Last modified: 29 Dec 2014 | 18:41:42 UTC

Is it possible to order also those Components via You that are not included in the 25€ ?

Jozef J
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Message 2985 - Posted: 29 Dec 2014 | 23:17:27 UTC

hi, i want two kit

mathom
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Message 2986 - Posted: 30 Dec 2014 | 12:23:09 UTC

przesłałem kasę paypalem za 1 kita - mathom.

Bergloewe
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Message 2987 - Posted: 2 Jan 2015 | 21:33:35 UTC

Hi,

I'd like to order one kit.

Friedrich Mühlhäußer
Fronstr. 28
D-76199 Karlsruhe

Germany

with best regards


Payment done by PayPal

Jozef J
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Message 2988 - Posted: 4 Jan 2015 | 13:52:46 UTC

hi, i want one.

rbaleja
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Message 2992 - Posted: 13 Jan 2015 | 7:07:42 UTC

Hi,
I ordered 1 Kit.
Payment via Paypal.

Robert Baleja

Aram
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Message 3019 - Posted: 26 Jan 2015 | 20:45:04 UTC

Hello Szopler,

do you still have a Kit for me?
Would like to participate in the project and order one Kit.
Is the V3 (white tube) sensor going to be significantly better than this redesigned V2 sensor and when would it be available ?

Thank you

[AF>FRANCE>ALPES>38]preverdy
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Message 3032 - Posted: 30 Jan 2015 | 14:28:00 UTC

Hello Szopler,

I Would like to participate in the project and order 2 kits when you'll have more available.

Thank you

Bryank
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Message 3048 - Posted: 5 Feb 2015 | 20:16:35 UTC

I just received a box with a circuit board, tube and a loose bag of resitors... am i suppose to solder this all together myself or did you send me the wrong parts? I was expecting a tube with a usb to plug into my computer.
____________

--Norbert
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Message 3049 - Posted: 6 Feb 2015 | 3:19:45 UTC

The kit contains the special parts but not everything. On the kit page (Main page, first 'HERE' link, or message post 2901), there is the designer's Bill Of Material showing was was provided with the kit. Some parts are optional. I believe the short manual will be posted soon by Szopler.

User lolwut82 created a list with mouser.de links: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ceJ8O9P2hbkoHjhze52GsHzFghpHT7pXXaDxP0MvOd4/edit?usp=sharing, as well as a shopping basket: http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=c37492dd34

And here is the list I made with mouser.com links: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bmanqcJtYQqQD-c1ioGJWCv2C7p6hMPfU3XaZmIHIJw/edit?usp=sharing

I paid around USD $30 plus shipping for the additional parts.



____________

--Norbert
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Message 3050 - Posted: 7 Feb 2015 | 18:01:12 UTC

There are some problems with all the parts lists below. I just got the delivery from Mouser, and some changes are required. What I see so far:
- the display needs an additional header connector to mount to the board *.
- the USB connector part is not THT (through hole) and does not fit the board.
- the 2 x 3 header part is not 2.54mm spacing and does not fit the board.
- capacitors C8 and C15 per the BOM are 'max height ~10mm'. This is an absolute 10mm max height, so the parts numbers have to change.
- BUZ1 does not have a 7.50 mm lead spacing (raster) and is also >10mm high does not fit the board.

* The board's DISP2 holes are a bit too small for a standard square-pin header strip to fit; I had to ream them with a tiny drill bit. An alternative that might work is squeezing the corners of the header pins with pliers before inserting.

Later today, I will revise the mouser.com list below. I want everyone to know that I am stepping up to help because there seems to be a lack of direction from the designers/admins, and I have some electronics experience to share.
____________

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Message 3051 - Posted: 7 Feb 2015 | 22:11:51 UTC - in response to Message 3050.
Last modified: 7 Feb 2015 | 22:44:01 UTC

Thank you for the help Norbert, I think that will help many participants!
Looking forward through the updated list of mouser.com links.

--Norbert
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Message 3052 - Posted: 8 Feb 2015 | 3:36:03 UTC

OK, I made the required changes. The updated list is here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bmanqcJtYQqQD-c1ioGJWCv2C7p6hMPfU3XaZmIHIJw/edit?usp=sharing

- BUZ is now <10 mm, and is a true buzzer, not a speaker
- C8 and C15 are now <10mm high so will fit under the display
- CON2 now has proper 2.5mm lead spacing
- CON3 is now a through-hole device. The only one Mouser.com has in stock has extra mounting legs that can just be clipped off.
- DZ2 and DZ3 are now .5 W zeners like DZ1, 4 and 5. The previously listed device is too big to fit neatly on the board.
- L1 and L2 are both now axial devices to fit the PCB.
- There is a new part required; R19. The BOM states R17 and R19 will be delivered; I found R17 soldered on but R19 was not provided. It's not in the HV section so I'm assuming this is intentional.

The display module needs input from the designer. Mouser does not seem to stock the correct ones, and the board layout and case size seem very specific about the 2 options intended.

P.S.You will need a fine-tipped soldering iron for this.
____________

--Norbert
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Message 3053 - Posted: 8 Feb 2015 | 4:24:52 UTC

I have a few additional things:
- SW1, SW2 and SW3 fit the board OK, but the actuator sticks out ~5 mm too far, so the list now contains a better sized part (FSMRA6JH). I will try to clip mine shorter.
- The display module needs additional header pins. The DISP2 option based on the schematic needs 10 of the 16 pins so a full 16 pin header is likely required. The DISP1 option is not on the schematic but appears to need a 4 pin header; whether it is additional or instead of, I can't tell (Szopler?).
- The axial inductors I selected below are 0.5A rated. Higher current parts are possible, but are harder to find. I trust these are sufficient, as USB isn't usually asked to supply more than this (Szopler?).
- C11, which is provided with the kit, has no mounting holes on the board. I assume this will be soldered on the component side after the top components are in.

--Norbert

--Norbert
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Message 3057 - Posted: 8 Feb 2015 | 16:56:05 UTC

After some feedback from Szopler, I updated the parts list for the display. I haven't found a North American supplier yet for the I2C built-in option (DISP2). DISP1 option will work, but mods are likely required to the case and the display, and I wouldn't choose this myself.
____________

--Norbert
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Message 3058 - Posted: 9 Feb 2015 | 0:12:45 UTC

Further info on the display. The only true native I2C display (DISP2 option) I can find is the model suggested by Szopler: Raystar model RC1602B5-LLH-JWV available from TME in Europe (looks like 10 left in stock as of today). Maybe someone else can locate another supplier (with I2C pins on the 16 pin header). I hope so, as the PCB, standoffs and case look to be intended for this option.
All other serial LCDs I found are based on an expander (DISP1 option). These are either pre-attached or sold separate. The MICROE-55 from Mouser is not serial so needs an expander. It also has to have the 16 pin female header removed before the expander can attach, or else it can't possibly fit in the case. So don't bother with the Mouser display (it's expensive anyway, as stated by others). Here are photos of the displays / adapters I found on eBay.
2 line x 16 character 1602 based display:

Serial I2C LCD Adapter that is narrow and likely to fit beside C15:

Pre-attached display and wider expander:

You can see that the 16 pin header is not available to fasten it to the PCB, and there are no standoffs at the PCB top corners, so the 4 pins sticking out the side are the only mechanical support available for the top of the LCD. These will have to be soldered to DISP1 pins sticking up from the PCB, I guess. At any rate, I made the E-Bay purchases (one of each DISP1 option), which may take 2 seeks to arrive.

--Norbert

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Message 3066 - Posted: 14 Feb 2015 | 17:25:32 UTC

I'd like to join; please tell me when detectors are available
I'd try one first and pay with paypal

I would be the first one in Spain :)
I live in a granit mountain region, famous for high radiactive argon concentrations, might be interesting to monitor

greetings

KGB
____________

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Message 3072 - Posted: 19 Feb 2015 | 0:11:36 UTC

mouser BOM can be found here.

Is there a place I'm missing, where I can find the board files and sources?

--Norbert
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Message 3077 - Posted: 20 Feb 2015 | 1:27:01 UTC - in response to Message 3072.

The kit details are on the Main Page, the second News item on the right side is about the new kit, the "HERE" link shows not only the list of orders/payments, but also the schematic, the original BOM and the source files. I don't think the designer has made the PCB board files available.

--Norbert

matteo
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Message 3084 - Posted: 25 Feb 2015 | 8:48:16 UTC

Hello

I just received the kit

-there is a pcb 2.61 with some components sold (5 resistors and 3 caps)

- there is micro and geiger(CTC-5)? and plastic box

-missing lcd display, usb connectort and many components

I have no idea how to mount this kit and not able to find a detailed

information how to do it in this site

someone can help me ? (matteo.santinato@gmail.com)

thanks in advance

Tobi
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Message 3218 - Posted: 10 Apr 2015 | 17:54:56 UTC

I'm also interested in joining, when will a new set of kits be avaible?

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Message 3223 - Posted: 28 Apr 2015 | 10:49:57 UTC

It would be very nice to ha a complete kit, instead of an partially one.

I have ordered the other components, but several parts are backordered, and I have to wait until at least July to get the remaining parts.

Also a mounting manual including info on how to activate both software and hardware to work together , and some howto's in a bundle would be nice.
As of now, one has to search all over the place, to get bits and parts of the way to get the systems go.
One problem is that there are several versions of the kit, and one dscription does NOT compare to newer ones, wich also make some confusion.

I would suggest :
-that there is made an updated manual( current version) with a description of mounting the kit, and a hoto to make it up and running.
- the kit should be delivered with all neded parts (to ensure they will meet the specs), since otherwise one is tempted to take used parts from old trashed electronics, wich would have decreased values compared to specs.
(and also may be failing)

If these pionts are met - the cost of the kit will of course increase, but the time saved for the partisipants, and a lot of waiting for 3-rd parts delivery ( and maybe failordered parts) .

This will eliminate a lot of failure possibilities, and malfunction kits.
It will also eliminate a few giving up the whole project because as it is now, its to complicated for most amateurs. Even thos who has buildt a lot of other kind of electronic kits.

I know this would increase the work of the delivery part of this projeckt, but i'm sure the results will be much better.

I might say that IF I have known how spread this project was, I wouldnt have participated in the first place.



I am also a participant at http://www.blitzortung.org/ wich delivered a complete kit, and it was up and running in less than a week after the kit arrived my home.

Ragards Asbjorn
Norway.


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Message 3228 - Posted: 5 May 2015 | 11:13:25 UTC
Last modified: 5 May 2015 | 11:42:22 UTC

Hi
been waiting for a working sensor for this project since Nov 2013 and no further forward and all previous attempts at getting a complete sensor have failed as all sold out to long standing back orders and I do check news here regularly.Now I see ths sensors are still only available in kit form with parts missing and no assembly instructions which is of no use to me- I do not possess the skills to assemble or troubleshoot hardware faults. Other posts I have made on this issue or for using alternative sensors readily available on internet have been hidden or deleted. What started out as interesting project with big potential is just big disappointment.I understand project leaders are busy people but so far 3+ years of badly managed project equals failure - sorry.

Clicking on 'short manual' here http://radioactiveathome.org/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=459 results in this url
http://i_have_no_time_for_it/
which says all that needs to be said really.
On a minor point the green text on grey back ground listing previous orders on the thread id459 above is totally unreadable to people like me with Irlen (scotopic sensitivity) syndrome (a fairly common visual problem related to dyslexia).

--Norbert
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Message 3229 - Posted: 6 May 2015 | 1:54:11 UTC - in response to Message 3228.

Hi,
You are correct, the kits for this project require a fair bit of skill to complete, including the need to follow several tracks of new builders trying to fill in the gaps in documentation. It means more time required by all who hope to succeed. By my count (may not be accurate), 30 new sensors have come online since the end of January when I received my kit, which means at least 70 remain unfinished.

If you are looking for a complete sensor kit (or a fully assembled sensor), then a similar open site www.radmon.org has such a thing. That site also shows sensor data on a world map including data from this site, as well as their own dedicated sensors. I like this site's map better, though because it has all the reactors. My R@H kit ended up working well except for a USB problem, which prevents it from participating here, but it works on the radmon site.

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Message 3604 - Posted: 21 Dec 2017 | 15:15:21 UTC

Hi you all)

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Message 3614 - Posted: 21 Dec 2017 | 18:37:22 UTC - in response to Message 3604.

Hi you all)


Go away you spamming cunt.


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Message 3620 - Posted: 12 Jan 2018 | 8:35:04 UTC - in response to Message 3614.

What are you talking about?

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Message 3621 - Posted: 12 Jan 2018 | 8:35:06 UTC - in response to Message 3614.

What are you talking about?

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Message 3628 - Posted: 12 Jan 2018 | 23:08:53 UTC - in response to Message 3621.

What are you talking about?


Fuck me, same spamming cunt comes back with a different ID. How very clever.

Anyway, nice to be able to say cunt in every thread, so something to be grateful for you cunts :)


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Message 3683 - Posted: 21 May 2018 | 9:36:12 UTC

No idea if there is someone still reading here, but after 4 years I stumbled upon my unfinnished kit and finally put it together.
The sensor is now up and running.



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Message 3695 - Posted: 18 Oct 2018 | 0:33:24 UTC - in response to Message 3683.

Yey!!.. Congrats!!

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Message 3696 - Posted: 18 Oct 2018 | 0:34:54 UTC - in response to Message 3683.

Yey!!.. Congrats!!
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Message 3697 - Posted: 20 Oct 2018 | 0:24:31 UTC

Good to see it finished. Is it posting to the map? I searched your username and that ID doesn't seem to be on the map sensor ID list.
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Message 3700 - Posted: 24 Nov 2018 | 17:56:32 UTC

Hello, I am new to the group so forgive me if I'm out of place. I'm just wondering if I can still get a kit, or if there are pre-existing pieces of equipment that work with this program? Or possibly the hardware and software requirements so that I could make one myself. I live in Colorado Springs Colorado, and I definitely have an interest in radiation, so I would be interested in partaking in this project if possible. Thank you sincerely for your time!

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Message 3701 - Posted: 24 Nov 2018 | 17:56:39 UTC
Last modified: 24 Nov 2018 | 18:00:33 UTC

I somehow created three messages all apologies I deleted them the best I could.

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Message 3702 - Posted: 24 Nov 2018 | 17:58:22 UTC
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Message 3704 - Posted: 26 Nov 2018 | 18:00:08 UTC - in response to Message 3700.

I'm just wondering if I can still get a kit, or if there are pre-existing pieces of equipment that work with this program?


There's been no new 'official' hardware for years.

However, have a look at this thread: http://radioactiveathome.org/boinc/forum_thread.php?id=160, particularly the latest posts.


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Message 3705 - Posted: 28 Nov 2018 | 2:52:28 UTC

There are also other sites that allow a variety of home-built, kit and commercial detectors. See Radmon.org and Netc.com.

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Message 3949 - Posted: 5 Jan 2021 | 17:25:49 UTC

This project has been abandoned by the administrators.

The project Administrators need to shit or get off the pot and hand over the project to people who actually want to do something with it. Anyone who sees this and would like to join me in taking this project over(if possible), contact me. I have already contacted Krzysztof 'krzyszp' Piszczek, and the former project manager, but all efforts were to the wind, as expected, no response. They have abandoned the project. my belief is that they should at least hand off the project to a group of people who want to see the project succeed, why just abandon a project and let no one else enjoy it because they don't "feel" like doing it anymore...

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